The Ryno Pen

And an answer came directed, in a writing unexpected…

This was originally a comment on the post “Book Review: People In Glass Houses - Tanya Levin“. Its divagatory scope, complexity and audacious reinterpretation of the norms of punctuation and orthography demanded broader exposure, so it’s now here as a post in its own right.

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Author : sekai mukwa

Editor’s Note: “Mukwa” is also the word for a dense, teak-like hardwood grown in parts of Africa. In order to identify the voices in this post, Sekai Mukwa will be represented by this handsome Mukwa carving.

Late edit: The little icons were all over the place. Deeming that this post was all-over-the-place enough already, the words “Mukwa” and “Ryno” have been inserted in their stead.

Your humble blogonaut will be Green Text except for hyperlinks, which should be in the usual blue, and quoted material from neither of us, which will be red.

MUKWA: Hi Ryno

just address me by my name as i am not a rev or doctor if i wished to be addreesed differently i would have mentioned it. I just want to address some of the issues you raised above.

RYNO: Okay, so you are neither a Reverend not a Doctor. I am glad that misconception is cleared up.

MUKWA: 1. I do not have a holy revelation (whatever that means) about whether tanya is a christian or not but i asked the question as she did not seem to doctrinally and scripturally base her critism as i will mention later

RYNO: Could we have some specific points of your argument here, please, Reader Mukwa, along with sources (reading from bible, Levin’s book, direct transmission from God)? Let your “Yes” be “Yes” and your “No” be “No”. That’s scriptural: look it up.

To clear up the issue of Christian-or-not, I looked in Tanya Levin’s book, at the last paragraphs of the last page.

“Jewels tells me there’s an Emerging Church, a new Christian movement who are very cross with the prosperity family and while not yet gaining the airtime, want to take Christianity’s future back to where it was supposed to be, saving the world. She said they estimate that if the tithes the US gave went to world aid, they could feed the world in a year. I’m a Jewish mother now, and I want everyone to eat, eat. And the die-hard Pentecostal in me knows that would be a miracle worth paying for. Amen?”

RYNO: Tell me now: have you actually read this book in any depth at all? Did you scan it lightly?

What is the basis for the accusation you make against Ms Levin, who professes her faith only to have you stand like some parody of the Angel With The Burning Weapon at the gates of paradise, saying she is no believer? I think you should apologise to her.

MUKWA: 2. tanya appear to imply that speaking in tounges is wrong but i believe according to the bible that speaking in tongues is a spiritual gift and its meant for ediffication and used in prayer when the holy spirit intercedes on our behalf to God.

RYNO: Firstly, could you please cite the passage in the book where Ms Levin “appears to imply” (slippery words, those!) that glossolalia is wrong? I do not see her condemning the tongues experience outright.

The partial borrowing from 1 Corinthians 14 and Romans 8 is what *you* believe, but I doubt that you would paraphrase it exactly the same way as some other believers. Please understand that there are numerous opinions on this and other matters within the Christian church, and many ways to justify these opinions by varying interpretations of the various translations of the bible and apocrypha.

MUKWA: If someone forced her to receive this gift then thats wrong but jesus told us that its for our advantage that he goes to the father and send us the holy spirit. the early church when there were about 120 disciples had this experince in cooperate worship. i do understand when people have problems with when and how praying in tongouse is done but i would not understand a christian thinking that there is something wrong for people who wants to be baptised in the holy spirit and have the gift of speaking in tongues.

RYNO: Yet there are Christians, as worthy to claim the name as you, who disagree with the glossolalia experience you refer to as “tongues”. This page, for example has a different take, that the languages were foreign terrestrial languages. This page too says “I have stood and had people speak in tongues and understood that it was a message straight from Satan himself.”

By the way, I am very interested in the notion “forced to receive” as you say - I’m reminded of a person very dear to me, who was actually deceived into salvation, by use of the (now heavily discredited) Stan Deyo “Cosmic Conspiracy” tapes. How does this “forced to receive” work? Does the salvation or baptism remain valid after the deception is revealed?

MUKWA: 3. I belive healing is scriptural as well. jesus ministry had preaching, healing poeple including casting out demons. am sure the 4 gospels gives us alot of this. he also cast out evil spirits not allowing some of them not to speak. also paul did this in his ministry. she does appear to be sarcastic about healing testimonies

RYNO: Believe as you will, what about the fake signs and wonders that are supposed to come about? (There’s a useful escape clause!) What about outright fakes, such as I witnessed first-hand (story in http://rynosseros.com/2007/08/15/stretch-of-the-imagination/)?

Anyway, it’s a comfortable piece of entertainment for the audience, whether or not actual healing occurs. The person allegedly conducting the healing has the option of cheap theatrical tricks like getting in confederates to play the part of “being healed”, or BLAMING THE VICTIM for insufficient faith, or whatever. The only person with everything to lose is the poor sap who is supposed to be healed!

Anecdotal evidence aside, where are the amputees with regrown limbs? Does God undo vasectomies, circumcisions, plastic surgery or appendectomies?I have experienced the “casting out demons” thing too, as an exorcist. Still I believe there is adequate room to explain this as a psychological phenomenon. I’ll blog it as part of the series started with this post.

MUKWA: 4. Tanya graciously mentions the salvation army as down to earth in their work with the poor disadvantaged etc. But thinks thats the work of compassion is recruitment for penecostals. i come from africa and salvation army and other churches like methodist, letheran, roman catholic to mention a few came many years ago. they established schools, hospitals, orphanages. they preach the word of God to all as part f evangelism but only those who want to become christians do so by choice. salvation army is actually more prevalent in my home area and many of us as children did go there. but not all of us chose to be christians when we grew up we made our personal choices. i made one when i was 19 well long after childhood. i do believe the word of God tells us about the graet commison for us to preach the word to all nations and pple will make their choice to believe. what do you and tanya believe about evangelism as disciples of christ? also its bibilcal to care for the poor and the widow. jesus ministry had this in mind so did paul and the early apostles. we are bleesed to be a blessing as our father abraham was. those who are planted in the house of god shall flourish in the courts of our god

RYNO: She thinks, you think….hardly fact, is it? I cannot answer for the author’s specific belief regarding evangelism. Levin has assembled a book which has some form of structure, and while its narrative is somewhat coloured by the personal hurt involved in her experience with Hillsong, there is still some structure. I do not see what you are driving at by mentioning that Levin mentions the Salvation Army.

By the way, nineteen is not long after childhood, unless you mean the sort where they charge you full fare on the bus.

What *I* believe about evangelism is that anybody wishing to show the example of Jesus should set about it in their life quietly. Anyway, it’s not important to me: I don’t appear to have experienced faith, just theatre.

It seems to me the movement of Christianity in the gospels was like a viral infection: intimate, incidental to life. In other words, totally unlike the neo-pharisaical invasion of business, politics, entertainment and other areas of very worldly commerce in which we find God, Inc these days. Of course, the attributes of media, politics and money are viral in their own way: ask those who count the non-taxed profits of the Hillsong media empire, or stop Brian Houston as he rides his Harley past a slum suburb.

MUKWA: 5. the bible talks about worship with all sorts of intruments from drums, lyres, tamborines, calpping hand, singing and dancing. david teh man after God’s heart was ridiculed by his wife for dancing before God. And we raed alot about how much Israel danced and worship when they crossed the red sea and when they carried the ark of God. even the walls of jerocho fell as israel was intrctued by God to go around 7 times the war was won. i have seen that people mainly use instruments according to their cultural belifes a lot of drums in africa where i come from and anything from flutes. violenes, guitar and keyboard. i just did not understand whats wrong with hillsong happy clapping. macdonalds sell to people who like it so does hillsong music and any other product you can think of. the only thing appear to “irritate” peopel is the musci sells a lot “shipped overseas”. i am one of their fans and the lylics are biblical

RYNO: Sorry, the bible does not mention drums! incidentally, David set up one of his officers to be killed so he could bonk the guy’s widow: some example, hey? While we’re at that Ark Of God, what about the real cool passage in 1 Samuel 4, where the elders of Israel tried to use it as an insurance policy and coerce God into whacking the Philistines? Shows you that the chief holy dudes can make grand plans that fall flat, huh? So don’t make the mistake that it’s necessarily God-approved just because that’s what’s all over the label.

As far as those wonderful biblical lyrics… from here I learn that Geoff Bullock, the originator of the title “Hillsong” and creator of most of their founding music, is rewriting a lot of his old Hillsong product “to correct the false gospel of success and power and glitz and glamour“.

MUKWA: 6. peopel are not forced to buy books and other resources so i do not know why this is a problem.

RYNO: I did not say people were forced to buy products, nor that it was a problem: I was telling you that popularity does not equal righteousness or correctness. Of course, commerce within the place of worship *can* become an issue. Before you know where you are, you get these wild-eyed ruffians turning over tables and driving the franchise-operators out with improvised whips. Not fair, those guys were tithing HEAPS!

MUKWA: 7. i havent seen or heard about a perfect church as long as jesus has not yet returned at the second coming. i undersatnd when people can be upset when they think they have not been treated well and there are times when this is justified. but also bear in mind that you are not a perfetc person you probably have hurt other people as well.

RYNO: I’ve probably hurt you by now! I do not claim perfection, but your unfounded contention against Ms Levin seemed like a reasonable challenge. Church I can take or leave, but untruth seems to get me going.

MUKWA: 8. at the cross the ground is level jesus died for us all young and old, amle and female. i know for a fact there are hillsong female pastors.

RYNO: And your point in mentioning this is, what exactly? The cliche is poor and unbiblical, as Calvary was reputed to be a hill. I do not see why you are introducing this at all.

MUKWA: 9. i do not know exactly how many staff are at hillsong church as i do not work there but it could be over 300 as its a big church but that hillsong may tell you

RYNO: I was never asking. You brought it up for some reason comprehensible only to you at this stage. Your demonstrable ignorance of matters inside Hillsong hardly qualifies you to defend the institution, though.

MUKWA: 10. jesus addressed some issues on teh verses you mentioned about giving alms. he also spoke about not praying in public but shutting your door, he spoke about oiling your self when you fast.

RYNO: Yes, and you were crowing about how you give, give, give! I see you’re at it again, but the relevance still escapes me, unless it is to establish your credentials in some way. If you are going to bat on about oiling yourself, please inform me, as I will need to add “NSFW” to the tag list.

MUKWA: we see people bringing offering to the disciples e.g annania and sapphira in public,

RYNO: You’ve missed a crucial point there. A&S may well have been bringing their gift in private, as the apostles (not disciples by this time since that Assumption thing) would almost certainly have made arrangement for the charity to be done quietly, unlike (for example) a Hillsong collection. Peter told them off in public. The issue was that they mis-stated their commitment and held back money that was theirs anyway (it’s one of those make-an-example things, like that poor fig tree that was in the wrong place just in time to become an object lesson). At least in those days they looked after the poor, orphans and sick. These days Mercy Ministries is not really free.

MUKWA: we see peter and disciples going to pray in public worship at teh hour of prayer. does that mean they contradicted jesus?

RYNO: They prayed in the synagogue, ie the appointed place and time, not the agora!

MUKWA: no i belive jesus was addressing a heart issue when about teh motive of doing something not the actual activity. apul does mention a lot about givig as well thanking people who had supported him in ministry not only did it became known to them but to all of us who reda the new testament. i mentioned that i give at church out of free will not coercion

RYNO: Heart issues? Christ the Cardiologist? You’re waffling again. We’re going to need some exegesis and cross-references next time, and some more structure in addressing and sticking to points may be useful. Go forth and do some reading, translating and cross-checking. I heartily recommend Strong’s!